This is a continuation of my last posting - TRUTH - AND CONSEQUENCES - and deals with how I orchestrated the break-up of my husband Karl and his friend Bill. I received many comments about the situation that led to this, and several responded to my invitation to guess what actually happened to complete the break-up.
Before I get into that, I must add that several commenters questioned whether I should have taken this to the extremes that I did. In particular, I was taken to task a bit for not finding ways to confront the problem of my husband Karl and his friend Bill - and their big mouths - without breaking up a friendship with another couple. I appreciate the points of view expressed, but I remain firm in my conviction that the only way to be truly certain that this exchange of information between Karl and Bill about the lifestyle that Karl and I share was nipped in the bud was to assure a clean break between the two of them. Since that would most likely end the friendship of Barb (Bill's wife) and myself as well, I just take it as another unavoidable problem of maintaining the privacy of Karl and me and the D/s lifestyle we have. In reality, "friendships" is a misnomer for these relationships. They're more acquaintanceships than friendships, so giving one up is not quite as drastic as it seems.
Over the years, I've found it difficult to really have a meaningful relationship with any couples that have a vanilla lifestyle. Since I'm lucky enough to have a group of Femdom friends to share things with, I really find that I don't need acquaintanceships with ladies with whom I can't share the most basic aspects of who I am. After all, what good is a "friend" if a big part of yourself can't be revealed to her? As to "couples" acquaintanceships, I really do that for Karl, who has business connections that make it hard to avoid couples get-togethers.
Now, on to the break-up. The closest guess as to what actually happened was written by a commenter named "Downlow" who wrote:
"I'm guessing that you called Barb and told her that Karl told you that Bill had said they're sex life was boring, and that Bill had wanted a spanking.
Barb would yell at Bill, and Bill would get mad at Karl and break off the relationship.
Is that close?"
Yes, it's close, but not as simple as that. I did call Barb the morning after I whipped Karl (he was still in the cage and listening to my end of the conversation), and I did tell her that I had questioned Karl, and pressed for more details about what he and Bill had said to each other (and that was no lie). I said that Karl told me that Bill had taken one of Karl's statements out of context and jumped in with stories about his sex life with Barb (that was part truth, part lie). In particular, Bill said his sex life wasn't very exciting and he wanted his wife to spank him or do other things, but that she wasn't adventurous enough to try something new or somewhat kinky (that was no lie). I said that Karl said that Bill kept bugging him for more details about what he mistakenly thought Karl and I were doing, but Karl just kept saying he didn't want to talk about it, and just kept trying to change the subject (not really a lie, but somewhat exaggerated). I said that Karl felt shocked when Bill started hinting around about our "unusual" sex life at dinner, and he gave Bill a warning look not to keep on in that vein, knowing that I'd be furious if I thought Karl had made up something completely ridiculous about our sexual habits (half truth, half lie). And I finished by saying that I had questioned Karl closely and was convinced that most of this "stuff" was coming from Bill who was evidently harboring sexual fantasies that were clearly his own (once again, part truth, part lie).
I could tell that Barb was both embarrassed and angered by what I had to say. She ended the conversation by saying that she had plenty to talk to Bill about, and she was sorry he'd put us all in such an awkward position. When I hung up the phone, I turned to Karl and gave him his instructions. I told him that I was quite sure that he'd be getting a call from Bill and that Bill would probably be furious at Karl for "throwing him under the bus". I told Karl that I expected him to fight anger with anger, to back up everything I'd said, and to tell Bill that none of this would have happened if he'd just dropped the subject when Karl asked him to, and bringing it up at dinner was way out of line. Hopefully, all of this would cause Bill to basically break off their friendship, but if he didn't, it was up to Karl to say that it would be better if they didn't have any contact in the future. I really wanted Bill to do the breaking up, but one way or the other, it had to be done.
It was Sunday morning when I gave Karl his instructions, and I told him that since he was off from work on Sunday and Monday, he'd better hope that Bill called soon, as I was going to keep him in the cage until this matter was settled, and I planned to be there when the conversation took place. Karl looked miserable when I told him what was expected of him, but he was smart enough to just say "Whatever you say, Milady" and leave it at that. I did let him crawl out of the cage long enough to rinse and clean his piss/shit bucket, but it was right back into the cage after that and I left the cordless phone where he could reach it through the bars, telling him to check the caller I.D. if it rang to see if it was Bill, and wait at least 3 rings before he answered so that I could pick up the upstairs phone and hear the conversation.
I then told Karl that I was going upstairs and making myself some breakfast, and that he'd be punished later for not being able to fix it for me as he did every morning. Depending on my mood, I might bring him some scraps to lick off my plate and maybe a bowl of water. Maybe. Karl looked miserable as I went upstairs, and that was fine with me. I was hoping that Bill would call soon and this whole thing would be over with, and I really wasn't sure what I'd do about Karl's cage time if Bill hadn't called before Karl's next scheduled work day, which was Tuesday. Keeping him in the cage from Saturday night to Tuesday morning would be much, much longer than he'd ever spent in the cage before, but that would certainly be a lesson he'd never forget. Not to mention all the extra punishments he'd earn by forcing me to fend for myself for breakfasts and dinners each day, and making me hang around the house myself waiting for that phone call.
Luckily, it never came to that. Bill called in the early afternoon and was just as livid as I hoped he would be. Karl did as he was told, and returned harsh words with harsher words, and the conversation soon reached gutter language levels. It ended with Bill saying that he didn't give a fuck if Karl never bought a thing again from the company he represented as he had no intention of ever calling on Karl again. I thought Karl showed a bit of class when he said that he wasn't going to punish Bill's company for Bill's stupidity, just make sure he had a new sales rep and Karl would see to it that his purchasing department handled things from now on. Bill ended with a "Fine, fuck you!" and that was that.
I kept Karl in his cage until 7 PM Sunday night, released him and had him bend over a stool for 30 strokes with a leather paddle on his already raw ass for messing up my breakfast and dinner routines (each stroke followed by Karl saying loudly "Thank you, Milady, for reminding me never to break a trust") and after he kissed my feet and thanked me for punishing him, I told him to clean himself up, drink one glass of water (no, he had never gotten any breakfast scraps or bowl of water), and to get dressed and take me out for dinner. I told him I had no desire to talk about all that had happened, and if he ever said a word to anyone about our lifestyle again without my express permission, he could expect to say goodbye to me.
Karl has been doing everything in his power to pamper me ever since this took place, and has suffered the rather brutal treatment I've given him since then in respectful acceptance. I am following through on my promise to keep his ass sore all month, and he knows what's going to happen to him on the final day of the March Madness basketball tournament. No, I still haven't heard from Barb, and I suspect I never will. That's probably for the best, as I can't imagine any conversation being anything other than very awkward. Life goes on.
P.S. - I must take a moment to recommend a blog I've been reading lately. It's fairly new, very well written, and a great deal of fun. It's called "Adoring a Domme Wife". I hope you check it out. Here's a link to its latest entry http://adoringadommewife.blogspot.com/2012/03/this-morning.html?zx=7ebf97fa42b6d1b8, but I suggest you read it from its beginning to see the wonderful progress that "J" is making.
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Thank you for sharing the thrilling conclusion to this saga, Lady Grey.
ReplyDeleteTriggering Barb's wrath on Bill was definitely a way to make this happen. It seems there were several things that "struck a nerve" with her and I'm sure Bill will be in the doghouse for a long while.
I know on the previous post some readers probably thought you were being overly harsh, but I would have to guess that the privacy aspect was made EXTREMELY clear to Karl very early on in the relationship and it was not something he should have let slip, especially that easily.
I hope that Karl is grateful that he was given another chance and I'm sure he would have been willing to undergo any punishment because of that. It's a good thing Bill wasn't passive aggressive, or Karl may have been in the cage for quite a long time.
Great approach and solution. There is not doubt why you are in charge.
ReplyDeleteAs a novice, I am fascinated by your blog and have read every post. While I'm sure I could get into it, I'm not interested in a lifestyle entirely like yours but identify with the impetus for it. I read partially wondering how I might develop my own relationship in perhaps some of these directions, so it's wonderful to have a window into what it would be like to do it full time, as it were. Something I'm interested in, though, is how confident you are that Karl will never balk. I don't necessarily think that this particular saga was terribly harsh, especially given his obvious willingness in the entire scenario of your relationship, but hypothetically, do you think he'd ever get fed up and walk away? I know there's certain boundaries he said he wouldn't cross when you established the nature of your relationship at the beginning, but I suppose I'm interested to know if 1) do you think he would he really walk away if you did cross those boundaries, 2) would you ever actually cross those boundaries and 3) do you think there's anything else that would make him just say "no more"? In short, when you devise requirements and punishments, how confident are you that he'll take whatever you give? Do you always operate with full confidence or do you pay some heed to his comfort? Of course I don't mean comfort in the traditional sense.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for your thoughts and for your writing, Lady Grey.
Fur -Yes, I was accused of being too harsh, especially to the point of breaking up a friendship, but I did what I thought was necessary, and I won't be second guessing myself. As for Karl's punishment, I'm not hearing any complaints coming from him. As you say, things should have been extremely clear to him concerning privacy. They certainly are now.
ReplyDeletedual - Thank you. I'm sure there's no doubt in my husband's mind either.
anon - No, I wouldn't cross any of our agreed upon boundaries, and if I did, I wouldn't blame Karl for walking, as that would qualify as a major breach of trust. Which is also why there's no punishment that would cause him to say "no more".
Punishment is definitely a major area of trust, where Karl knows that my love for him would not allow me to take him into a danger zone. In conversations after the fact (of various heavy punishments) he's never claimed that I've gone too far.
I'm glad I waited to read both posts before commenting. One, a little time beyond just the initial reaction helps provide an opportunity to mull over different factors. Two, you provided a key detail here that does make a big difference.
ReplyDeleteThe key detail: It's not really a friendship so much as an acquaintance. The relationship between committed partners outweighs outside casual relationships. It's not at all risking the committed relationship - or the privacy and trust that that needs - in order not to ruffle feathers in a relationship that has much less importance.
As far as perspective:
Yes, my initial reaction was that ending the relationship was possibly a bit much. But as I thought about it: Why would Karl (let alone you) want to be around someone so cavalier and stupid? Even if the two of you were ok with sharing details outside your relationship, Karl would still need to preserve a level of privacy. Clearly Bill couldn't be trusted to do that. None of us needs people like that in our lives.
So, I definitely get why you took the approach you did. Putting aside an acquaintance is something that will be soon forgotten. Especially when it's something that really is better for the two of you, both as a couple and for you individually.
Thanks for your response, Lady Grey! Your answer pointed me to what I think I really find most fascinating in your posts (perhaps because I'm a very meta-analytical person myself). I would love to hear more about how you and Karl talk about your relationship, such as when he's allowed to speak freely. And what your relationship is like during times when you're acting "vanilla" such as in public. That conflicts with your blog's voice, but I find it very intriguing to manage a lifestyle such as yours with the more typical areas of a relationship, such as talking about that relationship.
ReplyDeletemurmel - Well put, as usual. Yes, there is quite a difference between ending an acquaintanceship and ending a friendship. That made the decision more palatable, and I eveidently didn't make that clear enough in the original posting. I'm glad you stayed for the whole story.
ReplyDeleteanon - Unfortunately, I don't think enough couples, vanilla or D/s, talk often about their relationships. That's a shame, and a mistake, and I'm happy to say it's one we don't make. As to what we actually say, I'm afraid that's too broad a subject to go into. Maybe one day I'll do a post about it.
If "Bill" had been a real friend, he would have kept his mouth shut. he might have spoken to Karl about Karl's little slip up, but not voiced it any further. Ii have dealt with such loud mouths with my own business. One hing I learned early of (I've been in business one way or another since i was in high school) was that sales man types are very apt to be friends as long as it is profitable for them. The ones who slap you on the back are often the ones who will stab you in the back when the profit is gone.
ReplyDeleteYou did the right thing... ALL THE WAY
Observing
Thanks for filling us in on the rest of the story, Your solution seems like an elegant and effective way to start moving you and Karl past this unfortunate incident. i was also glad to hear that You were not giving up what You would consider good friends, more acquaintances. Seems like a shame if Karl's idiocy had cost You someone close to You.
ReplyDeleteAnd Your treatment of Karl seems harsh but fair...he remains a pretty lucky guy that his incredible breach of trust didn't cost him more, and it seems that whatever punishment You deem to give out, for however long You decide it necessary, is more than fair. Though i suppose it's always that way, since You are the one in control, right? =-)
Thanks also for the recommendation of my blog! Your blog is one of my must-reads, so to receive such high praise means a lot.
Wishing You best of luck as You continue to move past all this...and i suppose i should wish Karl luck as well, as it seems like he's going to need it for a while. As well he should...
observing - Thank you for commenting, and for the vote of support for what I did. Too bad that salespeople often deserve their bad reputations.
ReplyDeleteAdoring - You're quite welcome for the recommendation. It's well deserved. And yes, Karl will need plenty of luck to get through this month. He's finding it very hard to sit in a chair at work right now, and of course he doesn't get that opportunity at home. Instead, he finds that his knees are very sore when in our house.
I still disagree with your handling of this. Sorry. I think it was very harsh considering the infraction but he's your sub and you did what you saw fit.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious about the rippling effect of this action.Yes, you broke up this relationship but what if your actions had a deeper effect on the other couples marriage to say nothing of Bill's job with his company.
What if these actions caused a problem in this marriage or Bill his job? would you still feel confident that you choose the right acton here?
I have read back over both of your entries on this subject. I thought from the start that you were on the right track, and the more i go over the series of events, the more i realize, not only how right you were in your handling of the situation, but how imaginative and resourcefull you are. Karl had no business letting his tongue slip as he did. Bill is a braggard type and would have continued digging no matter how far into you "secret" he got. Oh, he might not have made direct remarks, but he would have kept "the hammer" poised with little innuendoes now and then. He certainly had no intentions to back off completely.
ReplyDeletekarl, it is obvious, reallized his mistake immediately. that is to his credit. Once you found out, you realized that karl was showing signs that he could get away with loose talk, whether the thoughts were real or subliminal. For you to allow such relaxation would have been disasterous to you control as well as repercussions to your marital relationship.
You struck immediately with authority and imagination. you remind me of my late aunt who was like a mother to me growing up. She always had the appropriate idea for punishment and she believed in "stiking while the iron is hot". She never advertized her power; but we all knew she was boss and feared her wrath at the same time we knew how much she loved us. Karl's fear has deepened at the same time he knows how much you love him. Your wrath came out in a way that his fear and obedience was stamped indelibly into his psyche.
You were so very careful to make his arguement with Bill appear to be all Bill's fault that Karl now knows more than ever of your love. Who cares about Bill and his marriage. You and Karl are your responsibility. I doubt Karl will ever let his tongue slip like that again. He is now more in awe of your power and love than ever. You are one scary lady. And I mean that in respect. I would not care to incur your wrath. I am sure it would always take the most appropriate path.
Observing
Ithink you over reacted and should have let the other couple fantasize about your Dom sex life. Maybe they would also get into a WLM lifestyle. I do believe it is a good thing that should be shared when the oppurtunity arises.
ReplyDeleteNot in the way it happened. I continue to admire julie for her actions.
ReplyDeleteThe salesman would have blabbed it anytime he felt it could be an advantage to himself to spread such knowledge. Now, everybody concerned is off the hook and julie is even better in her role of dominance and has strengthened her own position with her sub hub. He will definitely think twice/thrice before making such a slip again.
Observing
QG - Well, QG, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. As for endangering Bill's marriage, it wouldn't be much of a marriage if this one incident destroyed it. So no, I wouldn't feel guilty. Bill's job should be in no danger since Karl's company is still purchasing from his company at the same level as before.
ReplyDeleteObserving - Thank you for your well thought out support. I suppose I can at times be a rather scary lady, but only to my sub husband these days - and he loves it or we wouldn't still be together. In your second comment, who is Julie?
JBT - I wouldn't want them to know about my Dom sex life, much less fantasize about it. Wouldn't work for me at all.
Lady Gray,
ReplyDeleteI apologize for getting you name mixed up. I am terrible with names. I told my wife, one time when i did not introduce her right away that it was because i could not remember the person's name. I asked her not to be upset if sometime i forget her name. Duh........ That, i assure you, would never really happen.
The "scary lady" remark was meant in the most respectful way. You seem to have understood that. I appreciate.
Observing
Dear Lady Grey,
ReplyDeleteCongratulations once again for providing fodder for discussion.
At first glance I was, like some other commenters, wondering what the big deal was and why you were approaching the solution in such a seemingly radical way.
Upon further review, I have since concluded that you were exactly correct in what you decided to do.
The problem was twofold:
The first was Karl's slip of the tongue. Innocent enough at the time, maybe, but with dire consequences on the back-end on many levels. "Innocent" doesn't always equate to "little to no unintended consequences" in terms of career or other important things in life. That is serious.
The second problem - the bigger problem - was Bill himself. You have control over Karl but no direct control over Bill. Given his personality this would be a train wreck waiting to happen unless someone (you) took a radical approach. I know from experience how type A salespeople can be (I am a salesperson and have been one for almost 40 years). That dude would never shut up or stop digging for juicy details. Ever.
The situation you found yourself in was entirely unacceptable on many levels.
There is no question in my mind that you needed to find a way for Karl and Bill's direct relationship to end immediately. I say this because you are exactly right in that business friendships come and go all the time. So it is no big deal if their friendship ends. Both of them have PLENTY of other business friendships.
There are many nuances to this "episode" that are worthy of consideration and I think you took the only sensible approach to it. Kudos.
As for your punishment of Karl, that's up to you and I don't have much to say other than I feel sorry for him but I understand why his punishment needed to be as harsh as it was.
I suspect Karl is glad that March Madness is over. LOL.
Marc
Marc - Glad you understood what I did, and I appreciate your support. March Madness ended with a bang for Karl, and I doubt he'll ever repeat the offense that led to his "final game" punishment.
ReplyDeleteI am a new member here and want to repeat what others have said about your blog. It is wonderful and extremely well written. I have started from your initial entry and worked forward to date. I love your authority, your commitment, your honesty as well as karl's commitment and sense of purpose.
ReplyDeleteI am now living in Thailand with a woman, whom I will refer to her as Miss WW, who is very much in control of our relationship. But, being Thai, her English is fairly elementary at this stage, unfortunately, so she would not be able to fully comprehend your blog. She does, however, understand the principles of a FLR and rules very effectively. This is not something that is common to her culture, so she has had to read and learn. But she thoroughly understands the mindset and enjoys the benefits of being in charge, setting the rules and making sure the 'train runs on schedule'. Like you, Miss WW is a disciplinarian. We do not have a basement; we have a 'Temple', named in her honor. I must always be naked when entering her Temple, no matter if I am sent there for a discussion, or if I go to clean or fetch something for her. Always naked!
Because this lifestyle is new to Miss WW, she has shared some of our lifestyle with her friends, all of whom are vanilla. But She has 2 girl friends who are married to men 'who obey', as she says. They are very interested in what she tells them, especially about the options that her Power provides her. And she encourages them to use Their power in ways that will encourage their husbands to serve better and more reliably. We are dealing with a different culture, so things will not work as fast, but they can work, as Miss WW has shown. BTW, her friends have seen me kneel and kiss her feet in response to her direct order.
I tell you all this as a prelude to a comment on 'Orchestrating'. Most of the comments were very good, well thought out. Some agreed with you, a few did not. I understand your reluctance to share your Femdom life with others not in the scene, but with our experience here in encouraging a few other women to take more control, I could not help but fantasize a bit.
What if, during your last phone conversation with Barb, she had opened up about her relationship and had confirmed Bill's interest in spanking, admitting she didn't understand this nor really knew what to do. She loves him, but admitted her confusion. Would you have then opened up a bit about the availability of power that she has, that maybe her husband could use a dose of discipline to temper his salesman's swagger, at least when he is with her and mutual friends? I can see her even asking if you would show her a few ways to discipline, and bring her husband over to apologise to you personally.
Just a few thoughts, but as I we) am deeply committed to the concept of Woman Power, as are the two of you, given the right opportunity I think it is very positive to introduce 'new concepts' to others, but always respectfully and cautiously.
My regards, Lady Grey, and apology for a long comment.
Tony - A very interesting comment. I wonder how you found a Thai woman with dominant tendencies. Where and how did you meet, and did you initiate the FLR, or did she?
ReplyDeleteAs for your fantasy "phone conversation" with a Barb who needed advice concerning her husband's submissive proclivities, well that would have been interesting, wouldn't it? As much as I would have liked to help her out, my doing so would have been a tacit admission that Karl and I were living a D/s lifestyle. No doubt, this fact would eventually have been shared by her with Bill, which would have been the first step in making it public, which is the very thing I wished to avoid. So, no, I wouldn't have been able to help Barb and would have to have said that I had no idea as to how she should deal with a submissive husband. Sometimes, you just have to play dumb. Hope that answers your question, and I wish you continuing success in your own D/s lifestyle.
Thank you, Lady Grey. I understand your position, and it no doubt is the way to go.
ReplyDeleteI met my Thai partner online. Actually she chose me. It was a vanilla site, but I alluded to the fact that I wished to meet a woman who liked to be in charge of the relationship. In our early correspondence she asked me to explain this more fully, and one thing led to another. But right away she liked what I said even though it was contrary to traditional Thai culture. She told me that many Thai women feel this makes a lot of sense, but cannot get their husbands to agree.
So, to answer your question, I initiated the FLR, slowly and respectfully over a 2 year span. We are now living together and she is very much in charge, and enjoys her position of power very much, and loves to remind me of this fact often!
Lady Grey,
ReplyDeleteI hope you will continue your story about your relationship with karl's and his development. Both of you are inspirations to me, at least, but I am sure to many more.
As a lurker who has enjoyed your blog a great deal, I have been concerned with the lack of updates. I hope we will hear from you soon and that you and Karl are well.
ReplyDelete